Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Conservation Committee

August 29, 2001

Commission Hearing Room
Texas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
                                                                        1


           5            BE IT REMEMBERED, that heretofore on the 29th day

           6   of August, 2001, there came to be heard matters under the

           7   regulatory authority of the Parks and Wildlife Commission of

           8   Texas, in the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks and

           9   Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, Texas, beginning at

          10   11:45 a.m., to wit:

          11

          12   APPEARANCES:
               THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
          13
               CONSERVATION COMMITTEE:
          14   CHAIR:   Carol E. Dinkins, Houston, Texas
                        Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas
          15            Philip Montgomery, Dallas, Texas
                        Ernest Angelo, Jr., Midland, Texas
          16            John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas, Absent
                        Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas
          17            Katharine Armstrong Idsal, San Antonio, Texas
                        Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
          18            Joseph Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas

          19

          20

          21   THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
               Andrew H. Sansom, Executive Director, and other personnel of
          22   the Parks and Wildlife Department

          23

          24

          25


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           1                 CHAIR IDSAL:  We will now take on the business

           2  of the Conservation Committee.  Carol Dinkins.

           3                 CHAIRMAN DINKINS:  Thank you, Madame Chair.

           4  Our first order of business is approval of the minutes of the

           5  last meeting.  Are there any additions or deletions to those

           6  minutes or revisions?

           7                 COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Move approval.

           8                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Second.

           9                 COMMISSIONER DINKINS:  Thank you.  All in favor

          10  say aye.

          11                 ("Aye").

          12                 CHAIRMAN DINKINS:  Those opposed nay.  The

          13  motion carries.  Next is the Chairman's Charges.

          14                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  Madame Chairman,

          15  the mission of the Conservation Committee is to promote the

          16  natural and cultural resources of Texas, using private land

          17  conservation and education initiatives, conservation easements

          18  and trusts, and strategic land acquisitions.

          19                 There are a number of items relative to the

          20  implementation of the Sunset Bill, Senate Bill No. 305,

          21  including advise, consult and support local governments with

          22  aquatic vegetation management and control as a part of the

          23  aquatic vegetation plan.  Second, to develop a statewide land

          24  and water resources conservation and recreation plan which

          25  Mr. Montgomery might well include in inventory of trail


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           1  resources such as you have mentioned.  I will let you-all know

           2  that Carter Burgess has been selected as our outsource partner

           3  on this project.  Third, to plan and coordinate the

           4  development of historical sites and to negotiate with the

           5  Texas Department of Transportation for the use of obsolete

           6  bridges, tunnels and causeways for the artificial reef

           7  program.

           8                 With respect to other actions of the 77th

           9  session, principally there is a new provision in Senate Bill 2

          10  which requires our department to participate in the Texas

          11  Water Advisory Council which is a new statewide water planning

          12  institution.  Through that effort we will continue to advocate

          13  fish and wildlife resource needs, to complete all bay and

          14  estuary studies, to emphasize the importance of protected

          15  stream segments and regional water planning and assure that

          16  regional plans and associated water development strategies

          17  consider the impact of those strategies on fish and wildlife

          18  resources to minimize adverse impacts.  That completes the

          19  charges, Madame Chairman.

          20                 CHAIRMAN DINKINS:  Thank you, Mr. Sansom.  All

          21  of you have a copy before you.  Any questions?  Then we'll

          22  move to Item 2, which is the nomination for oil and gas lease

          23  that Gus Engeling WMA.  Kathy Boydston, welcome.

          24                 MS. BOYDSTON:  Madame Chairman, Members of the

          25  Commission, my name is Kathy Boydston, I'm program leader for


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           1  the Wildlife Habitat Assessment Program.  The item I'm

           2  presenting is an oil and gas nomination on the Gus Engeling

           3  Wildlife Management Area.  It's located in Anderson County.

           4  It's a 10,000-acre tract.  The department owns 50 percent of

           5  the mineral interest in this tract.  This proposal follows the

           6  Commission policy of requiring a minimum bonus bid of $150 per

           7  acre with a 25 percent fixed royalty and a $10 per acre delay

           8  fee in rental for a term of three years.

           9                 We also propose that the lease be subject to

          10  the restrictions in Exhibit A.  And the first restriction

          11  would require the oil and gas operator to locate on an

          12  existing drilling pad and use existing -- an existing access

          13  road and existing pipeline easements.  This would result in

          14  the least amount of surface disturbance to the area and also

          15  the least amount of disturbance to the normal operations of

          16  the WMA.  The second restriction would just cover any concerns

          17  that the department has that are not included in the normal

          18  oil and gas lease.  Thank you.  Are there any questions?

          19                 CHAIRMAN DINKINS:  Mr. Angelo.

          20                 COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  The $150 an acre minimum

          21  bonus, is that something that we've established as a constant,

          22  or do we -- do you-all look at that to see what's going on in

          23  the area and what the circumstances are?

          24                 MS. BOYDSTON:  What we will do is we'll send

          25  this as soon as you approve this tomorrow, we will send it


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           1  over to the GLO and let them know what we're going to require

           2  and they will research it and make sure that that's applicable

           3  for the area and then let us know if it needs to be more.

           4                 COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Okay.

           5                 MS. BOYDSTON:  They will hardly ever ask us to

           6  reduce it unless there's a complaint from a nominator, but --

           7  that it's too high, but normally they will only ask us to

           8  increase it.

           9                 COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  I was -- it's

          10  particularly important at this time but considerably better

          11  now and prices are -- prices for such things are up so I

          12  wasn't sure what our process was for making sure that we were

          13  competitive.

          14                 MS. BOYDSTON:  They're very good about letting

          15  us know if we need to increase it.

          16                 COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Okay.

          17                 COMMISSIONER DINKINS:  Any other comments or

          18  questions?  If there is no further discussion or any other

          19  questions, then without objection, we'll move this item to the

          20  Thursday Commission meeting agenda for public comment and

          21  action.  Thank you.

          22                 MS. BOYDSTON:  Thank you.

          23                 CHAIRMAN DINKINS:  Our next agenda item is a

          24  briefing by Bob Cook on Less-than-Fee Conservation

          25  Alternatives for Private Landowners and, Jeff Francell,


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           1  welcome.

           2                 MR. COOK:  Thank you very much.

           3                 CHAIRMAN DINKINS:  Welcome.

           4                 MR. COOK:  My name is Bob Cook.  I'm chief

           5  operating officer and I've asked Carolyn Vogel and Jeff

           6  Francell, Carolyn is with the wildlife division and Jeff is in

           7  our land conservation division to -- to assist me with this.

           8  Our purpose here today is to have a discussion and this is

           9  just a briefing item for your consideration and any -- any

          10  other information that we can provide.

          11                 Less-than-fee conservation alternatives for

          12  private landowners potentially provide them -- provide a

          13  permanent conservation benefit while allowing lands to remain

          14  in private hands.  Our purpose here today is to highlight some

          15  of the applications of this conservation tool and discuss the

          16  department's role and -- as a facilitator and/or a potential

          17  holder of those easements and/or development rights.  I

          18  think -- I think each of these as -- as we get into them are

          19  going to be a case-by-case, you know, situation that we'll

          20  have to discuss and review and -- and work on individually.

          21  We -- we got started into this many years ago, but in April of

          22  1996 we sponsored a conference here in Austin of which there

          23  were about 300 people participating.  Our chairman, Lee Bass

          24  at the time, kind of set the tone of the meeting by talking

          25  about the direction of the TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION


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           1  program being one to educate and facilitate -- helping people,

           2  helping landowners understand and -- and learn about the

           3  various conservation alternatives that are out there and to

           4  facilitate work with the Texas land trust groups that were

           5  around at the time.  And that's where Carolyn has come in and

           6  done us a great service and it's very much appreciated.

           7                 In fact, in April of 1999, TPWD created the

           8  Texas Land Trust Council program which Carolyn heads up to

           9  provide services to the state's 35 nonprofit land trusts.  In

          10  October of 2000 the Governor's Conservation Task Force, which

          11  was chaired by Commissioner Dinkins and included members of

          12  our current Commission and past Commission, Lee Bass,

          13  Mr. Henry, and Joe Fitzsimons, recommended that Texas should

          14  create a statewide purchase of development rights program;

          15  reform tax laws to support conservation; and expand incentives

          16  for habitat management and outdoor recreation on private land.

          17  Those are three of the principal recommendations that came out

          18  of that group for the governor's office, the legislature, and

          19  those folks to consider.

          20                 Given that, I would like to -- I would like to

          21  turn the program over at this time to -- to these folks and

          22  let them proceed with you and talk about some of the

          23  definitions, some of what we're doing now and what we're --

          24  what we're being faced with.

          25                 MR. FRANCELL:  Commissioners, I'm Jeff Francell


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           1  and I'm just going to run through a few things very quickly

           2  and hopefully leave lots of times for questions.  The first

           3  thing we'll talk about are definitions as well as conservation

           4  benefits of these kinds of agreements; landowner benefits,

           5  these kinds of agreements, and the responsibilities of an

           6  entity that holds an easement or purchases a development

           7  right.  Carolyn will talk about the current role of Texas

           8  Parks and Wildlife.

           9                 A conservation easement is a voluntary legal

          10  agreement that a landowner places on its property to protect

          11  natural, cultural or historic features of their property.

          12  Purchase of development rights is when a landowner is actually

          13  paid for the limiting of future development or subdivision of

          14  their property.  An easement holder is a legally -- a legally

          15  empowered agency, government agency or nonprofit private land

          16  trust, that's the groups that Carolyn works with, who's

          17  allowed to hold the conservation easement and who is

          18  responsible for monitoring and enforcing the conservation

          19  easement.

          20                 Some of the land uses that are restricted or

          21  limited with these kinds of agreements -- I'm not going to

          22  read all these on the list, but the top two are generally in

          23  almost all of these kinds of agreements which involve

          24  commercial, industrial, residential development, or

          25  subdivision.  There are a number of benefits, conservation


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           1  benefits to doing these kinds of agreements including reducing

           2  fragmentation and habitat loss.  This is an issue that Parks

           3  and Wildlife deals with all the time with private landowners.

           4  These kinds of agreements also give the -- would give the

           5  entity that holds the easement, the ability to influence

           6  resource management on private property, much like Parks and

           7  Wildlife does with its wildlife management plans.  These kinds

           8  of agreements can preserve open space and protect scenic

           9  views.  They can also protect and enhance water quality and

          10  also, in historic and cultural sites, easements can be placed

          11  on buildings to make sure buildings aren't changed in the

          12  future or to protect, say, Indian rock art sites, or something

          13  like that.

          14                 There's some landowner benefits to doing these

          15  kinds of agreements.  I would say the first benefit is that

          16  these agreements generally meet the goals of the private

          17  landowner since they're voluntarily placed.  Usually a

          18  landowner seeks out an entity to hold these kinds of

          19  agreements.  They're looking for somebody to work with them --

          20  and for the future.  There are tax deductions, Federal IRS

          21  income tax deduction advantages to doing conservation

          22  easements or purchase of development rights.  Agreements like

          23  purchase of development rights or conservation agreements can

          24  help landowners with estate planning.  And then the last one,

          25  specific to purchase of development rights, is when a


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           1  landowner is paid for limiting future development.  They can

           2  actually realize some of the capital that they sit on and

           3  don't use.  And they can do things with that, with those

           4  funds, for the property in the future, or to help with estate

           5  planning.

           6                 The responsibilities of the easement holder are

           7  fairly simple, but they're very important.  Monitoring the

           8  conservation easement or purchase of development rights is

           9  something that they're required to do, either once or

          10  sometimes more a year.  And also if there is ever a violation,

          11  the easement holder is responsible for going in and making

          12  sure that the landowner comes back into compliance, and we

          13  mention those because whenever you consider this kind of

          14  project, it's something that you don't want to overlook.  And

          15  I'll turn it over to Carolyn, she'll talk about her current

          16  role.

          17                 MS. VOGEL:  Thank you.  Madame Chairman,

          18  Commissioners, I'm Carolyn Vogel.  As Bob stated in his

          19  introduction, the role that I play at Parks and Wildlife is in

          20  the facilitation and education role about this conservation --

          21  long-term conservation approaches to conservation.  And as Bob

          22  stated, the Texas Land Trust Council was initiated -- it was

          23  started here at Texas Parks and Wildlife in 1999 I'm the

          24  administrator of that program today.  The role of the Texas

          25  Land Council is to promote and sustain the conservation


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           1  efforts of the 35 nonprofit land trusts that operate in Texas

           2  today.  And our program acts as the service center.  I work

           3  directly with these 35 nonprofits in their efforts to -- to

           4  sustain themselves and to help grow healthy organizations in

           5  Texas.  And to meet their objectives, acting as a service

           6  center and aiding them in meeting their organizational and

           7  stewardship development objectives of the land trust.  The

           8  Texas Land Trust Council has a 15-member board.  Carter Smith

           9  of The Nature Conservatory is the current president of the

          10  organization.  This board also represents many of the land

          11  trusts throughout the State.  A couple of our board members --

          12  different board members represent different land trusts and

          13  also the professional advisement of the community.

          14                 We have a board member from Counemava

          15  Conservancy which services the Dallas/Fort Worth area, from

          16  Bexar Land Trust which is in San Antonio; from Katy Prairie

          17  Conservancy west of Houston.  And again, a 15-member board --

          18  and I work very closely with them again in this effort to

          19  sustain and grow healthy organizations.  Another one of my

          20  major jobs is to work with our biologists and technical

          21  guidance folks who are working directly with landowners and

          22  talking to landowners about the different conservation choices

          23  and options they have in the short-term and long-term

          24  protection of their properties.  And my job is to train the

          25  staff, and also not just in the wildlife division, but I work


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           1  with other divisions of the agency also.  And another part of

           2  my job is to work directly with landowners.  I get numerous

           3  calls from landowners who are inquiring about these approaches

           4  to conservation and concern about, you know, how do I protect

           5  my habitat or concern about the fragmentation issues, that

           6  they are experiencing in their own families.

           7                 In the education role that we provide, we've

           8  had a number of statewide conferences.  We've had -- this year

           9  we've had regional workshops in which we got needs assessments

          10  and the land assessments.  We need to be trained in these

          11  technical skills.  We've had regional land trust workshops and

          12  trained staff of land trusts and board and volunteers along,

          13  again, with the staff of other agencies that are involved in

          14  conservation.  We also in these workshops have included CEU

          15  opportunities for the professional community.  It's avery

          16  important role to -- to help the professional community, the

          17  attorneys, the appraisers and the accountants who are advising

          18  the landowners, so that's part of our role here in the Land

          19  Trust Council program.  Thank you.

          20                 MR. COOK:  I think it's important -- in this

          21  discussion -- I believe -- where we are today in this program

          22  is one of -- our first question is always, "What is the goal

          23  of that private landowner and his family?"  When we go to

          24  people now and talk to them about wildlife management plans,

          25  typically they have asked us to come, number one, and the


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           1  first thing that our people do when they sit down at the table

           2  with them, they say, "What are your needs?"  That's just in

           3  the voluntary wildlife management planning -- "How do you want

           4  to do this?  What works for you and your family and what you

           5  want to accomplish here?"  I see a real similarity in this

           6  program and how we might be involved in it like that.  Our

           7  number one issue here is conservation and that's what we, I

           8  think -- it is important that we focus on.  I think we are

           9  going to get more and more and more people -- private

          10  landowners in Texas coming to us.  They trust TPWD.  They

          11  believe in TPWD.  They know our people, they know our wardens,

          12  they know our biologists, they know our staff and our field --

          13  our parks people.  They trust us and they ask for this kind of

          14  information from us.  So depending -- I think, depending on

          15  how deep we want to get into it we can get pretty deep.

          16                 And I think Mr. Fitzsimons made a -- made a

          17  suggestion, made a comment the other day that I thought was --

          18  was very important.  We should always -- we should always try

          19  to direct, try to help put the land trust organizations in the

          20  state together with landowners.  It's not necessary that we

          21  be, you know, the holder of any or all of these -- these

          22  programs.  But there are groups out there who are there for

          23  that purpose and who -- we can help put the two together.  So

          24  that's kind of where I think we are right now.  And I

          25  really -- I really appreciate Carolyn's efforts in this and


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           1  the staff's.  Just in those few years we've -- we've -- this

           2  is -- this is a -- this is a beginning.  We're just getting

           3  started and it's relatively new to Texas; not too many people

           4  are comfortable with it.  Some people are very uncomfortable

           5  with it.

           6                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Bob, how many

           7  conservation easements does the department hold or manage

           8  presently?

           9                 MR. COOK:  Carolyn can answer that, I believe.

          10                 MS. VOGEL:  I think we have, let's see, I think

          11  we hold about eight right now.

          12                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  And you are the

          13  holder and obviously manage it.

          14                 MS. VOGEL:  Yes.  We have a couple at the San

          15  Jacinto Battleground, a couple at Caddo Lake and one playa

          16  lake in the Panhandle.

          17                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Those were donated or

          18  acquired?

          19                 MS. VOGEL:  Donated.

          20                 COMMISIONER FITZSIMONS:  All donated.  Are

          21  there any purchased development rights similar to the program

          22  we looked at in Colorado on the Conservation Task Force in

          23  Texas?  I know that Nature Conservancy has --

          24                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  Here in the -- as a

          25  part of the Barton Creek, you know, watershed protection there


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           1  are purchased development rights.  That would be the only

           2  situation that I would be familiar with.

           3                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Is it Proposition 2?

           4                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  On that scale.

           5                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Proposition 2 here?

           6                 MS. VOGEL:  Right.  And there's a 6,000-acre

           7  ranch in Hays County that's under option right now, the Hill

           8  Country Conservancy which is a local land trust that Andy's

           9  referring to in Barton Creek.  And they have an option now to

          10  buy the development rights on 6,000 acres in the neighboring

          11  county.  It's a water protection.

          12                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  The bond issue

          13  recently passed in San Antonio for the purpose of watershed

          14  protection, I believe, also envisions the purchase of

          15  development rights over the aquifer -- in western Bexar

          16  County.

          17                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  It does, it includes

          18  it.  What's intriguing about that is that the people who are

          19  benefitting are actually paying.

          20                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  Sure.

          21                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Which -- well, that's

          22  not always the case in public policy and that's a unique

          23  program.

          24                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  What is our policy on

          25  the acceptance of easements just --


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           1                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  It has been the

           2  same as the policy on acceptance of any other asset and that

           3  is that it's viewed not only as an opportunity but as a

           4  liability and that's why, in Jeff's presentation, he made it

           5  real clear that in each one of these cases there's a, you

           6  know, there is a direct cost.  And so that's part of the

           7  consideration.

           8                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Right.

           9                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  We intended to

          10  be -- in terms of our own role as a holder, more interested

          11  in -- in situations where an easement could be used, or a

          12  purchase of development right could be used, to protect an

          13  existing area.  For example, an area adjacent to a park that's

          14  threatened by some adverse use that would allow us to protect

          15  the watershed, a viewshed or some other value without having

          16  to take ownership of the property.  In addition, our

          17  management costs would be less there because we have a staff

          18  on-site.

          19                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  You leverage a great

          20  deal more with those dollars than just buying the development.

          21  You mentioned that -- there's some precedent, I guess, in some

          22  of the properties around.

          23                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  Yes.  And we're

          24  going to -- we're going to brief you further on that.

          25                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Okay.


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           1                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Is there a policy

           2  that when we accept one we have a management plan attached to

           3  it then?

           4                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  Yes.  That's a

           5  part --

           6                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  For monitoring.

           7                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  Generally that

           8  would be part of the easement, yes.  And it's a legal

           9  requirement.

          10                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Well, I mean the

          11  monitoring of the compliance is our responsibility when we're

          12  the holder?

          13                 COMMISSIONER DINKINS:  Some of these things are

          14  required so that you can comply with the tax laws to get the

          15  benefit.

          16                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  That's what I'm

          17  wondering.

          18                 COMMISIONER FITZSIMONS:  That's an important

          19  distinction because some people do it for the tax benefit in a

          20  donation.  Others, like in Colorado, actually sell it.

          21  Different requirements.

          22                 COMMISSIONER DINKINS:  Yes.

          23                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  And so even the

          24  nomenclature, if the -- if the -- if the -- if the device is

          25  being instituted potentially for Federal Income Tax purposes,


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           1  then even the nomenclature is described by Federal law.  So

           2  there's some real tight -- so there's some parameters there

           3  which are in the Federal statutes.

           4                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Well, that's where I

           5  was going with the whole line of questioning is, are we in

           6  effect monitoring on behalf of the Federal -- do we have any

           7  obligations to the Federal government or IRS or anybody else

           8  in any of this that we're doing?

           9                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  No.

          10                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  That's all

          11  separately --

          12                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  It comes to the

          13  question of value for the taxpayer who takes the deduction.

          14  That's their issue.

          15                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  One other comment

          16  here that -- that I think is real important not to pass over

          17  and that is the tremendous importance of these local land

          18  trusts.  What the local land trusts represent is the

          19  opportunity for peers in regions to form nonprofits.  And so

          20  the potential sellers or donors of easements are dealing with

          21  people whom they trust and in fact are their peers, and that's

          22  the -- what has made this program really catch fire in places

          23  like the Gunnison Valley in Colorado and other places where

          24  rural owners have -- have formed institutions themselves to

          25  take advantage of both the tax laws of, in the case of


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           1  Colorado, fairly substantial grant opportunities to cause

           2  these conservation benefits to occur and to allow them to have

           3  some monitorization of value that they otherwise would never

           4  achieve.  Did I say that right?

           5                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  The key in the

           6  Colorado example that I have some experience with, is that the

           7  cattlemen formed the land trust.  Now, they had an advantage

           8  in Colorado or have that we don't have yet in Texas and they

           9  had a source of funding -- okay the open space funding from a

          10  portion of the lottery.  They call it gold cup.  And -- but

          11  there's also some matching money and in that case developers

          12  were actually paying into the pot to buy development rights to

          13  protect the view sheds around their own developments.  So what

          14  intrigues me is that there really is a free market element

          15  here that can be fostered but it has to start with people

          16  being comfortable first with --

          17                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Joe, are most of these

          18  easements perpetual or do you have like a term easement to

          19  where they say --

          20                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  That's the question

          21  for the -- I mean, if you're doing it for tax purposes --

          22                 CHAIRMAN DINKINS:  You can do it either way.

          23                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Right.  But what I'm

          24  saying is -- is -- I mean, we'll take it either way so as long

          25  as it's long-term enough to where our investment in managing


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           1  it, you know, would make sense, obviously.

           2                 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS:  You can take it either

           3  way, but at some point it doesn't have much value.  If it's

           4  so -- so --

           5                 COMMISSIONER DINKINS:  Tenuated.

           6                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Short-term.

           7                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Tenuated.  I'm no tax

           8  lawyer, but that -- that goes to the issue of value.  If

           9  you're donating it and trying to take it for estate tax

          10  purposes.  But, you know, what intrigued me about the Colorado

          11  program, especially with the issue of the developers, what

          12  intrigues me about Proposition 2, as they said before, the

          13  people actually benefitting are paying.  In other words, if

          14  you're using that water and you're protecting my water by not

          15  developing that open space, I should pay you for that

          16  development.  And it keeps those people on the land and in

          17  agriculture and they're really selling something they didn't

          18  want to do anyway.

          19                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  Well, to carry that

          20  analogy further it's an alternative investment to a dam or

          21  some other means of providing water.

          22                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Exactly.

          23                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  So I've got it right.

          24  Our practice in that is to encourage the local land trusts and

          25  sort of be a --


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           1                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  Where possible.

           2                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Where possible and to

           3  refer inquiries to them and that we're only accepting

           4  easements where there's a very special reason for us to hold

           5  it.  But we're really not trying to accumulate them ourselves.

           6                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  The donor won't have

           7  it any other way.  Now, is there any way -- does it make any

           8  sense -- I've seen this before where you divide management and

           9  holding.  You similarly -- you do in the commercial real

          10  estate business, is that you have one party could hold it and

          11  have a management contract with another party.

          12                 MS. VOGEL:  County governments often use that

          13  where -- where -- because often -- because municipalities

          14  can --

          15                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  Outsource and

          16  monitoring.

          17                 MS. VOGEL:  Yeah.  And contract to the local

          18  land trust even though the county might hold the easement.

          19                 COMMISSIONER DINKINS:  Any other questions or

          20  comments?  Then the remainder of our agenda items are to be

          21  addressed in executive session.

          22                 CHAIR IDSAL:  Before we go into executive

          23  session, I wanted to make a comment about the Chairman's

          24  Charges.  You-all may be relieved to hear that we're not going

          25  to read all the Chairman's Charges in their entirety at every


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           1  meeting, but I think since we've just come out of Sunset and

           2  whatnot and I'm the new chairman that it would be appropriate

           3  to read the entire charge of each committee.  And while we're

           4  doing that, even though we're not meeting today on

           5  Infrastructure or Education and Outreach, I would like

           6  Mr. Sansom to read the charges for those two committees as

           7  well.

           8                 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SANSOM:  Thank you, Madame

           9  Chairman.  First for the Ad Hoc Infrastructure Committee, the

          10  mission would be to ensure the long-term integrity of Parks

          11  and Wildlife's infrastructure resources through an effective

          12  and efficient capitol development and repair program.

          13                 Specifically the Sunset Bill calls for us to

          14  perform cost benefit analyses for contracting with private

          15  entities to manage proposed projects.  We are to successfully

          16  complete our $60 million bond issue and to prepare and --

          17  for -- and execute hopefully the successful passage of

          18  Proposition 8 which will complete our critical infrastructure

          19  repairs and then to track and appropriately manage projects

          20  that we are in partnership with the -- the Texas -- the Parks

          21  and Wildlife Foundation of Texas through Lone Star Legacy.

          22                 As the chairman has mentioned, the Outreach and

          23  Education Committee has been established as a permanent

          24  standing committee.  Its mission will be to ensure

          25  effectiveness and efficiency of department efforts to provide


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           1  education, public awareness, and increased acceptance of

           2  conservation and outdoor recreation opportunities.

           3                 Specifically, Senate Bill 305, the Sunset Bill,

           4  calls for us to study and prepare a report on all department

           5  outreach and education programs, evaluating consistency and

           6  recommending termination where appropriate.  And finally to

           7  create a plan for the oversight of department-wide outreach

           8  and education programs.

           9                 Secondly to initiate, encourage, and support

          10  all other departmental programs and projects designed to

          11  promote conservation in outdoor recreation.

          12                 Madame Chairman and members, we have had the

          13  pleasure today of having with us our first natural leaders

          14  class whom you were introduced to last night.  And I would

          15  like to point out for the record that the assignments of the

          16  natural leaders for the year 2001 will be the specific

          17  implementation projects that I have outlined for you this

          18  morning for Sunset.

          19                 Thank you very much.

          20                 CHAIR IDSAL:  I would like to announce that

          21  pursuant to the requirements of Chapter 551 Government Code

          22  referred to as the Open Meetings Law, an executive session

          23  will be held at this time for the purpose of consideration of

          24  land transactions.

          25


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           1   THE STATE OF TEXAS )

           2   COUNTY OF TRAVIS   )

           3        I, KIM SEIBERT, a Certified Court Reporter in and for

           4   the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the above and

           5   foregoing pages constitute a full, true, and correct

           6   transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks and Wildlife

           7   Commission on August 29, 2001, in the Commission hearing room

           8   of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin,

           9   Travis County, Texas.

          10        I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic record was made by

          11   meat the time of the public meeting and said stenographic

          12   notes were thereafter reduced to computerized transcription

          13   under my supervision and control.

          14        WITNESS MY HAND this ____ day of ____________________,

          15   2001.

          16

          17

          18                      ___________________________
                                  KIM SEIBERT, Texas CSR 4589
          19                      Expiration Date:  12/2002
                                  3101 Bee Caves Road
          20                      Suite 220, Centre II
                                  Austin, Texas  78701
          21                      (512) 328-5557

          22

          23

          24

          25


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