Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Public Hearing

November 18, 1999

Commission Hearing Room
Texas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744


                                                           1
                          

        8                BE IT REMEMBERED that heretofore on 

        9     the 18th day of November 1999, there came on 

       10     to be heard matters under the regulatory 

       11     authority of the Parks and Wildlife Commission 

       12     of Texas, in the commission hearing room of 

       13     the Texas Parks and Wildlife Headquarters 

       14     complex, Austin, Travis County, Texas, 

       15     beginning at 9:23 a.m. to wit:

       16     
              APPEARANCES:
       17     THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
                   Lee M. Bass, Fort Worth, Texas, Chairman
       18          Dick W. Heath, Carrollton, Texas
                   Nolan Ryan, Alvin, Texas
       19          Ernest Angelo, Jr., Midland, Texas
                   John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas
       20          Carol E. Dinkins, Houston, Texas
                   Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas (absent)
       21          Katharine Armstrong Idsal, Dallas, Texas 
                   Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
       22     
                                   
       23     
              THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT:
       24     Andrew H. Sansom, Executive Director, and 
              other personnel of the Parks and Wildlife 
       25     Department.



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                                                           2


        1     OTHER APPEARANCES: 

        2          Mr. Ellis Gilleland, P.O. Box 9001, 
              Austin, TX 78766, representing Texas-Animals
        3     
                   Mr. Mack Freeman, 817 Estate Drive, 
        4     Belton, TX 76513, representing Traditional 
              Bowhunters of Texas
        5     
                   Mr. Montashe Whiting, College of 
        6     Forestry-Stephen F. Austin, Nacogdoches, TX 
              75962, representing himself.
        7     
                   Mr. David K. Langford, 1635 NE Loop 410, 
        8     #106, San Antonio, TX 78209, representing 
              Texas Wildlife Association.
        9     
                   Mr. Tosh Brown, P.O. Box 160818, Austin, 
       10     TX 78716, representing himself.
              
       11     

       12     

       13     

       14     

       15     

       16     

       17     

       18     

       19     

       20     

       21     

       22     

       23     

       24     

       25     



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        1                    NOVEMBER 18, 1999

        2               MORNING SESSION:  9:23 a.m.

        3                        * * * * *

        4                     PUBLIC MEETING 

        5                        * * * * *

        6                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Good morning.  

        7     Sorry for the tardy start for those of you who 

        8     have been waiting.  We'll convene this meeting 

        9     of Parks and Wildlife Commission.  And 

       10     Mr. Sansom would you please read our opening 

       11     statement to keep us in compliance with the 

       12     Open Meetings Act. 

       13                MR. SANSOM:  Mr. Chairman and 

       14     members of the Commission, a public notice of 

       15     this meeting containing all items on the 

       16     proposed agenda has been filed in the Office 

       17     of Secretary of State.  This is required by 

       18     Chapter 551 of the Government Code and 

       19     referred to as the Open Meetings Law.  I would 

       20     like for this action to be noted in the 

       21     official record of the meeting. 

       22          Ladies and gentlemen, along with members 

       23     of our Commission, I would very much like to 

       24     welcome you here this morning and express to 

       25     you how appreciative we are that you are here 



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                                                           4


        1     to participate in this meeting.  The Chairman 

        2     is in charge of the meeting, and as usual, I 

        3     will kind of be assisting him as a 

        4     sergeant-at-arms. 

        5          Now, sort of the way we work is that if 

        6     you want to speak, which we would very much 

        7     like for you to do, you need to make sure that 

        8     you've signed up outside with one of the 

        9     cards.  What Chairman Bass will do is that he 

       10     will call your name from those cards one at a 

       11     time, and then we would like for you to come 

       12     forward and speak from this podium out in 

       13     front of me.  When your name is called, come 

       14     to the podium, state your name, who you 

       15     represent, if someone other than yourself.  

       16     Oftentimes the Chairman will also call the 

       17     next person in line so that you can be on 

       18     deck, and if you could just come and stand at 

       19     the back of the audience, then the meeting 

       20     will move in a fairly orderly fashion. 

       21          Everybody is going to have three minutes.  

       22     And we've got a big crowd today.  There's lots 

       23     of folks here.  And so if we limit our remarks 

       24     to three minutes, then everybody will get a 

       25     chance to speak.  I will use this little 



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                                                           5


        1     traffic light here to let you know when your 

        2     three minutes are up.  Now, if a commissioner 

        3     asks you a question or if they're talking 

        4     among themselves and discussing an issue with 

        5     me or with the staff, that time will not be 

        6     counted against you.  But we do ask you to 

        7     limit your remarks to three minutes. 

        8          It's important that everyone understand 

        9     that I'm not going to be real tolerant of any 

       10     kind of comments that are simply just 

       11     argumentative in nature or they're not showing 

       12     the proper respect for the other members of 

       13     the audience and commissioners or our staff.  

       14     I can tell you that we just don't allow that 

       15     in this meeting, and I'll have to ask you to 

       16     leave if anything like that occurs. 

       17          If you have things that you would like to 

       18     give to the Commission, any written materials 

       19     or materials that you would like to present to 

       20     them, Ms. Estrada over here on my right will 

       21     be glad to take them from you and then 

       22     distribute them to the Commission.  So thank 

       23     you once again for being here.  And we 

       24     appreciate you following our rules of order.

       25                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you, Andy.  



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                                                           6


        1     The first order of business before us is 

        2     approval of the minutes from our previous 

        3     meeting.  They've been distributed to the 

        4     Commission for opportunity to review.  And if 

        5     the Chair does not have any comments for 

        6     revisions or deletions, I would entertain a 

        7     motion to approve them.

        8                COMMISSIONER WATSON:  I so move.

        9                COMMISSIONER DINKINS:  Second.

       10                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion by 

       11     Commissioner Watson, second by Commissioner 

       12     Dinkins.  All in favor.  Any opposed?  Thank 

       13     you. 

       14          (Motion passed unanimously.)

       15                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Second order of 

       16     business would be acceptance of gifts as 

       17     required by statute, and those have been 

       18     posted for review.  And if there is any 

       19     questions, I'd enter them, otherwise the Chair 

       20     would enter a motion for acceptance.

       21                COMMISSIONER HEATH:  So move.

       22                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion by 

       23     Commissioner Heath. 

       24                COMMISSIONER IDSAL:  Second.

       25                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Seconded by 



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                                                           7


        1     Commissioner Idsal.  All in favor.  Any 

        2     opposed?  Thank you.

        3          (Motion passed unanimously.)

        4     TPWD DONATIONS OVER $500

        5     Name of Donor: Ocean Energy Inc.
              Description: 4-pile jacket
        6     Purpose of Donation: Donation to Artificial 
              Reef
        7     
              Name of Donor: US Army Corps of Engineers
        8     Description: Radio tower
              Purpose of Donation: To maintain radio 
        9     communication
              
       10     Name of Donor: Dow Chemical
              Description: Walk-in freezer, pipe rack
       11     Purpose of Donation: Excess equipment
              
       12     Name of Donor: San Antonio Police Department
              Description: 1992 Kawasaki, Trailer
       13     Purpose of Donation: Use by Law Enforcement
              
       14     Name of Donor: E. Texas Chapter Quail 
              Unlimited
       15     Description: Cash
              Purpose of Donation: Food, lodging and 
       16     supplies
              
       17     Name of Donor: Great Houston Chapter of Quails
              Description: Cash
       18     Purpose of Donation: Food, lodging and 
              supplies
       19     
              Name of Donor: Dow Chemical
       20     Description: Refrigerator
              Purpose of Donation: Donation item not needed
       21     
              Name of Donor: Exxon Corporation
       22     Description: Supplies and materials
              Purpose of Donation: To provide funding for 
       23     wetlands exhibit   
              
       24     Name of Donor: TAMU Chapter Wildlife Society
              Description: Deer research at Gus Engling
       25     Purpose of Donation: Deer research
              


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                                                           8


        1     Name of Donor: Houston Safari Club
              Description: Cash
        2     Purpose of Donation: Food, lodging and 
              supplies
        3     
              Name of Donor: Cajun Construction
        4     Description: Water Control Structure/Service
              Purpose of Donation: Redfish Impoundment
        5     
              Name of Donor: MESP, Inc.
        6     Description: Uniforms, equipment, supplies
              Purpose of Donation: Park hosting televised 
        7     race
              
        8     Name of Donor: Troy Moncrief
              Description: Riding mower and weed eater
        9     Purpose of Donation: Ground maintenance
              
       10     Name of Donor: South Plains College
              Description: Service at Gus Engling WMA
       11     Purpose of Donation: Monitor small mammals
              
       12     Name of Donor: Korima Foundation Big Bend SP
              Description: 4 hand radios
       13     Purpose of Donation: Effective radio 
              communication for workshops
       14     
              Name of Donor: Brunch Wildlife Management Coop
       15     Description: Sony Camcorder
              Purpose of Donation: Aid local game wardens 
       16     with equipment
              
       17     Name of Donor: TAMU
              Description: Service at Gus Engling WMA
       18     Purpose of Donation: Monitor small mammals
              
       19     Name of Donor: Purdue University
              Description: Deer research at Gus Engling
       20     Purpose of Donation: Deer Research
              
       21     Name of Donor: Tipton Ford
              Description: Cash
       22     Purpose of Donation: Books   
              
       23     TOTAL:  $569,504.

       24                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Mr. Sansom.

       25                MR. SANSOM:  Mr. Chairman, this is 



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        1     part of the meeting in which we get to 

        2     recognize some of our employees and make 

        3     announcements about some of the important 

        4     things that are going on in the life of Parks 

        5     and Wildlife.  Before doing that, I would like 

        6     to, first of all, call you're attention to the 

        7     fact that one of the most loyal and beloved 

        8     and hardworking members who have ever served 

        9     on this Commission, Mr. Louis Stumberg is here 

       10     with us in the audience today.  And I would 

       11     like to ask everyone to join me in welcoming 

       12     him.

       13                     (Applause)

       14                CHAIRMAN BASS:  We appreciate your 

       15     continued involvement in our cause.

       16                MR. SANSOM:  Although today is a 

       17     sad day in the life of Texas A&M, we do have 

       18     the privilege today of having a couple of 

       19     classes from Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences 

       20     department under the direction of Dr. Denton 

       21     and Dr. Lacher, and they are here with us as 

       22     well today and we welcome them. 

       23          You guys heard yesterday about this 

       24     year's sales for our Big Time Texas Hunts 

       25     program.  This program is bigger this year.  



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        1     It's got new hunting opportunities and 

        2     additions to the traditional programs of the 

        3     Texas Grand Slam and the Texas Exotic Safari.  

        4     Hunters throughout Texas and beyond had the 

        5     opportunity to purchase $10 chances for the 

        6     Texas Whitetail Bonanza, the Texas Waterfowl 

        7     Adventure and Big Time Texas Bird hunts, and 

        8     purchase they did.  Our sales were up 223 

        9     percent over last year.

       10          Today we'll be announcing during the day 

       11     the 18 lucky winners who will be participating 

       12     this year in some of the most spectacular 

       13     hunting opportunities in Texas.  But the real 

       14     winners, the real winners are all of the 

       15     people who enjoy the out of doors in Texas, 

       16     because this program will put $440,000 to 

       17     benefit public hunting and wildlife management 

       18     programs in Texas. 

       19          Just in passing, I would note to you that 

       20     85 percent of all the people who filed to draw 

       21     in this program were holders of Texas hunting 

       22     licenses at the time that they applied, and we 

       23     had over 70,000 total applicants. 

       24          And so, Mr. Bass, if you could do the 

       25     honors of announcing the winner of the Texas 



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        1     Grand Slam. 

        2                CHAIRMAN BASS:  It's a pleasure.  

        3     The Texas Grand Slam is the crown jewel of the 

        4     various hunt drawing programs we have, and 

        5     it's a spectacular opportunity for somebody to 

        6     hunt the four premier big game animals in 

        7     Texas, including bighorn sheep which is a rare 

        8     opportunity anywhere in the country, and even 

        9     more so in Texas.  And these hunts represent 

       10     the best we have to offer, and I'm happy the 

       11     participation in all of our hunt programs has 

       12     been so spectacularly up this year. 

       13          I think staff is to be commended for the 

       14     marketing efforts, and I think we all agree 

       15     we've barely scratched the surface for the 

       16     potential of this.  And it's a great 

       17     opportunity for Parks and Wildlife, and it's 

       18     also I think a great opportunity for our 

       19     constituents.  If you look at the odds, it 

       20     sure beats playing the Texas Lottery, although 

       21     they'll never admit that. 

       22          And the winner of this year's Grand Slam 

       23     Hunt is a man from San Antonio, who I'm sure 

       24     is going to have a wonderful time enjoying his 

       25     opportunity this year, and his name is Scott 



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        1     Tellez.  And if he would come forward I would 

        2     like to present him a certificate that awards 

        3     him this hunt and wish him well.

        4                     (Applause)

        5                MR. SANSOM:  Way to go, Scott.

        6                MR. TELLEZ:  Thank you very much.

        7                          (Photographs were then

        8                          taken; applause.)

        9                MR. SANSOM:  Congratulations.  

       10     Thanks for coming today. 

       11          Now, Mr. Chairman, it is my pleasure to 

       12     introduce to you a number of Parks and 

       13     Wildlife employees who have given tremendous 

       14     service to the state of Texas over many years.  

       15     I think all of us have felt very, very blessed 

       16     in recent years that the fishing along our 

       17     coasts and our bays and estuaries has been 

       18     better than frankly it has been in any of our 

       19     lifetimes, and it wasn't always the case.  

       20     There was a time when our bay fisheries were 

       21     almost totally depleted by growth over fishing 

       22     from the commercial industry.  And thanks to 

       23     the leadership of this Commission and the 

       24     Texas Legislature, that problem was resolved, 

       25     but not without a tremendous number of years 



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        1     of struggle by our law enforcement officers 

        2     along the Texas Gulf Coast.

        3          One who has been in the middle of that 

        4     struggle for all of his career is Arthur 

        5     Lawrence.  Arthur lives in Bay City.  He has 

        6     been an employee of Parks and Wildlife for 30 

        7     years.  He is a sergeant.  And he started in 

        8     Beaumont on the coast.  He's transferred to 

        9     Calhoun County where that was one of the most 

       10     difficult areas.  He's worked in Matagorda 

       11     County since 1977.  And he has been recognized 

       12     as the Texas Gulf Coast Conservation 

       13     Association's Officer of the Year. 

       14          Please recognize Arthur Lawrence, a 

       15     sergeant from Bay City, Texas with 30 years of 

       16     service.

       17          Congratulations, Arthur.

       18                          (Photographs were then

       19                          taken; applause.)

       20                MR. SANSOM:  There was a time also 

       21     in the eastern part of our state, as hard as 

       22     it is to imagine today, when white-tail deer 

       23     were virtually extinct and an endangered 

       24     species.  Also as you-all know in East Texas, 

       25     Eastern wild turkey were almost totally 



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        1     extirpated.  Thanks to wildlife -- Fish and 

        2     Wildlife employees, including technician Terry 

        3     Martin from Avery, those populations are back, 

        4     and he has been someone who has been involved 

        5     in the trapping and transport and relocation 

        6     of white-tail deer in Texas through the 

        7     inception of the program. 

        8          He has worked at Pat Mayse, the Caddo 

        9     Wildlife Management Area and the Gambill Goose 

       10     Refuge.  He has been very involved in the 

       11     restoration of both white-tail deer and 

       12     Eastern wild turkey.  And he has throughout 

       13     his program been able to witness the direct 

       14     results of his work when yesterday, for 

       15     example, you-all authorized us to go forward 

       16     to bring in several new counties into the 

       17     Eastern wild turkey hunting program this year 

       18     for the first time essentially in a half a 

       19     century.

       20          Please recognize a fish and wildlife 

       21     technician from Avery, Texas with 30 years of 

       22     service, Terry Martin.

       23                          (Applause)

       24                MR. SANSOM:  Ron George told me 

       25     earlier in the meeting that Terry might be 



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                                                          15


        1     hung up in the fog, so I think he might be 

        2     delayed.  If he comes in, we'll recognize him. 

        3          We are very, very blessed that we've got 

        4     employees that are not only recognized in 

        5     Texas but all over the United States for their 

        6     professional expertise.  And if you doubt 

        7     that, you should attend sometime meetings of 

        8     organizations such as the International 

        9     Association of Fish and Wildlife Agency, the 

       10     National Recreation Park Association or the 

       11     Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife 

       12     Agencies.  Last week at the Southeastern in 

       13     Greensboro, North Carolina, John Prentice from 

       14     inland fisheries was selected as the person 

       15     who has presented the most outstanding paper 

       16     in fisheries in the United States in 1998 for 

       17     his work on tracking grasscarp in the 

       18     Guadalupe River.

       19          John started working as an intern and 

       20     worked as an intern for four years for the 

       21     department from 1966 through 1970.  He then 

       22     went to graduate school working as a half-time 

       23     biology field worker while finishing his 

       24     degree.  He has been at the Heart of the Hills 

       25     Fish Hatchery for almost 25 years.  And he is 



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        1     a leading researcher in fisheries management 

        2     in the United States. 

        3          John Prentice from Ingram with 30 years 

        4     of service.

        5                          (Photographs were then

        6                          taken; applause.)

        7                MR. SANSOM:  Congratulations on 

        8     your award. 

        9          One of the parks that has led -- state 

       10     parks that has led our system in the 

       11     involvement of the community and the 

       12     development of friends who would not only 

       13     provide volunteer resources but provide money 

       14     for the management of the park is at Palo Duro 

       15     Canyon State Park.  The superintendent there 

       16     has served this department for 30 years, and 

       17     his name is Larry Scruggs.  He has been at 

       18     Lake Whitney.  He has been at Lake Arrowhead.  

       19     He serves on the executive boards of the 

       20     Panhandle Heritage Foundation, Partners in 

       21     Palo Duro Canyon Foundation, as well as the 

       22     Convention and Tourism Board of Amarillo 

       23     Chamber of Commerce. 

       24          Many of us participated summer before 

       25     last in a wonderful event at Palo Duro Canyon 



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                                                          17


        1     which raised nearly $100,000 for its 

        2     endowment, and it would not have happened 

        3     without the leadership of Larry Scruggs.

        4                          (Photographs were then

        5                          taken; applause.)

        6                MR. SANSOM:  People who use boats 

        7     in Texas depend on a part of Texas Parks and 

        8     Wildlife which is rarely seen by the rest of 

        9     the public.  We are responsible for 

       10     registration, registering and titling all of 

       11     the vessels in Texas, and that process is 

       12     handled by people like Gloria Acosta.  Gloria 

       13     has been an accounting clerk in the Austin 

       14     office.  She's worked in this area for 25 

       15     years.  She started in 1974 in data entry.  

       16     And she remains today involved in the most 

       17     successful boat registration and titling 

       18     system in the United States.  Gloria Acosta.

       19                          (Photographs were then

       20                          taken; applause.)

       21                MR. SANSOM:  Anybody who tries to 

       22     get to the chief law enforcement officer of 

       23     Texas Parks and Wildlife has to go through 

       24     Wilma Barker.  Wilma Barker has been here for 

       25     25 years.  She's worked in wildlife, she's 



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        1     worked in fisheries.  She served nine years in 

        2     the state parks division.  And she went to 

        3     work in law enforcement over 15 years ago and 

        4     she is now training her third director of law 

        5     enforcement, Mr. Robertson.

        6          I'm most proud of her because after all 

        7     that service in Parks and Wildlife, she has 

        8     returned to college to complete her education.  

        9     Please welcome Wilma Barker with 25 years of 

       10     service.

       11                          (Photographs were then

       12                          taken; applause.)

       13                MR. SANSOM:  What can you say about 

       14     the guy that leads the most aggressive and 

       15     successful fisheries program in the United 

       16     States?  Every once in a while I get letters 

       17     from people outside Texas who pick things up 

       18     in papers and other media, and not long ago I 

       19     received a copy of a clip from the Wallstreet 

       20     Journal from a friend of mine in Florida who 

       21     commented on the fact that the Journal had 

       22     identified our fisheries managers as the most 

       23     aggressive in the United States.  That is 

       24     because of the leadership of Phil Durocher. 

       25          Phil Durocher came to work for Parks and 



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                                                          19


        1     Wildlife in 1974 as a research specialist.  

        2     He's worked in Inland Fisheries virtually all 

        3     of his career.  He's worked in hatcheries.  

        4     And he designed and coordinated the 

        5     implementation of the current stock assessment 

        6     procedures which has been so successful 

        7     throughout our state. 

        8          He became director of management in 

        9     inland fisheries in 1984.  And in the early 

       10     part of this decade when fisheries and 

       11     wildlife were managed as a single entity, he 

       12     became director of the inland fisheries 

       13     section of that.  He supervises a budget of 

       14     over $8 million and a professional staff of 

       15     175 people.  During his tenure as director, we 

       16     have reached some new and nationally 

       17     significant milestones, including the 

       18     establishment of the freshwater fishery center 

       19     in Athens.  Phil created the state's first 

       20     freshwater fisheries advisory board, the Urban 

       21     Fishing Program, which was his brainchild, 

       22     later became the KIDFISH program which is now 

       23     known throughout the United States. 

       24          So please if you would recognize with me 

       25     the director of our inland fisheries division, 



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                                                          20


        1     Phil Durocher with 25 years of service.

        2                          (Photographs were then

        3                          taken; applause.) 

        4                MR. SANSOM:  Marty Martinez is an 

        5     accountant down in the administrative 

        6     resources section.  I know that all of you get 

        7     as much mail as I do.  Every singling one of 

        8     us receives a tremendous volume of mail 

        9     because there are so many people from 

       10     throughout the state who are interested in its 

       11     cultural and natural resources.  Everyone has 

       12     an opinion, and they tend to write them down.  

       13     In addition to that, the tremendous volume of 

       14     business mail that comes through here is 

       15     staggering.  And one of the people who manages 

       16     that and has for over 25 years is Marty 

       17     Martinez who's an assistant supervisor in the 

       18     mail services section.

       19          Please recognize Marty with me at this 

       20     time.  

       21                          (Photographs were then

       22                          taken; applause.)

       23                MR. SANSOM:  Also from 

       24     administrative resources, Corette Richter 

       25     began working here in 1974 as well.  She spent 



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                                                          21


        1     all of that time improving the boat 

        2     registration section, including automating it 

        3     and implementing numerous legislative changes.  

        4     And the boat registration deal, Members, is 

        5     one of the things that almost always seems to 

        6     be a legislative issue. 

        7          She supervised for the past seven years 

        8     the boat information section in which she is 

        9     the primary interface with boat owners, 

       10     dealers, county tax assessors collectors and 

       11     field offices of the department. 

       12          Please recognize Corette Richter with 25 

       13     years of service here in Austin.

       14                          (Photographs were then

       15                          taken; applause.)

       16                MR. SANSOM:  Last night we were 

       17     treated to our annual Thanksgiving Feast by 

       18     the Living History staff of the Sauer-Beckman 

       19     Farm at the LBJ National and State Historical 

       20     Parks.  I will tell you that one of the most 

       21     compelling moments that I have experienced 

       22     since I have been at Parks and Wildlife was to 

       23     participate in the Christmas tree lighting 

       24     there about four or five years ago when the 

       25     federal government was shut down because of 



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                                                          22


        1     the conflict in Congress over the federal 

        2     budget.  And as you recall, federal employees 

        3     throughout the United States were prohibited 

        4     from working.  But that evening, the employees 

        5     of the National Parks Service who were our 

        6     partners -- are our partners at the LBJ sites 

        7     became volunteers of the Texas State Parks 

        8     System so that that event and others during 

        9     that time could be a success.  They did that 

       10     at some risk to themselves, but they did it 

       11     because of the extraordinary relationship that 

       12     they have with our superintendent, Donnie 

       13     Schulch. 

       14          Donnie has been at LBJ for 25 years.  He 

       15     was there from the beginning when the 

       16     Sauer-Beckman Farm first opened.  He started 

       17     basically as an administrative technician.  

       18     And for a while he was the guy who did the 

       19     slide shows in the local schools, the chambers 

       20     of commerce and other civic programs.

       21          In 1983 he was appointed park manager of 

       22     the LBJ State Historical Parks.  And today 

       23     Leslie Starr Hart, who is the chairman of 

       24     the -- the superintendent of the national park 

       25     there, and Bob Howard, the chief ranger are 



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                                                          23


        1     here to help all of us recognize one of our 

        2     most outstanding state park employees and 

        3     leaders, Donnie Schulch from LBJ. 

        4                          (Photographs were then

        5                          taken; applause.)

        6                MR. SANSOM:  Also from state parks 

        7     in the Mexia area, Sharree Armstrong has 

        8     worked for state parks for 20 years.  For the 

        9     first 18 months, she was literally holding 

       10     down the fort at Old Fort Parker, which is now 

       11     managed by the city of Grosbeck.  She 

       12     transferred to Fort Parker and the Confederate 

       13     Reunion Grounds State Historical Park complex 

       14     where today she is administrative technician.

       15          She organizes and ordinates the Western 

       16     Days Bar-B-Que Cookoff and the Living History 

       17     Days at the Reunion Grounds.  She supervises 

       18     the operation of the state park store, which 

       19     at Fort Parker has canoes and paddle boats and 

       20     a number of other things.  She runs the Host 

       21     Program and works with the Friends of Fort 

       22     Parker. 

       23          Please recognize with 20 years of 

       24     service, Sharree J. Armstrong. 

       25                          (Photographs were then



.

                                                          24


        1                          taken; applause.)

        2                MR. SANSOM:  I have a lot of 

        3     hunting buddies, including many of you, and 

        4     this is one of them.  For 20 years Dwight 

        5     Esmond has been a law enforcement officer in 

        6     the Texas state parks through the Texas Parks 

        7     and Wildlife Department.  He started out as a 

        8     boat operator and then worked his way into the 

        9     Academy.  And upon graduation he was stationed 

       10     in Brownsville. 

       11          In 1991 he transferred to Dayton.  And if 

       12     you ever wonder whether or not these guys put 

       13     it on the line, the last time I talked to 

       14     Dwight, it was because I had been informed by 

       15     Director Robertson that Dwight and one of his 

       16     colleagues had been in incident in which a man 

       17     in a hunting situation had pulled a gun on 

       18     him.  And so these guys do put themselves at 

       19     risk for the resources of Texas every single 

       20     day.  And one of them of whom I am most proud 

       21     is Dwight Esmond from Dayton with 20 years of 

       22     service.  And he has his son Dustin with him 

       23     today, I believe.

       24                          (Photographs were then

       25                          taken; applause.) 



.

                                                          25


        1                MR. SANSOM:  Today, Members, the 

        2     resource protection division is so much a 

        3     functioning part of what Texas Parks and 

        4     Wildlife does to defend the resources of our 

        5     state that it's almost inconceivable that it 

        6     was not the tremendous force that it is today.  

        7     When Jack Ralph began working in resource 

        8     protection, it was a part of inland fisheries 

        9     and there were only five staff members.  Today 

       10     he leads two programs, the Inland Kills and 

       11     Spills Team and the Analytical Chemist 

       12     Laboratory.  He began in 1979 as a chemist 

       13     with that branch of inland fisheries, and he 

       14     has been here for 20 years as one of the most 

       15     dedicated and enthusiastic employees of Texas 

       16     Parks and Wildlife. 

       17          Please recognize John J. Ralph from 

       18     resource protection with 20 years of service.

       19                          (Photographs were then

       20                          taken; applause.)

       21                MR. SANSOM:  The next person I'm 

       22     going to introduce to you has worked on 

       23     buildings in over 40 different state parks, 

       24     and he began in inland fisheries.  Over ten 

       25     years there, he completed over $22 million 



.

                                                          26


        1     worth of construction projects, including the 

        2     13-and-a-half-million dollar San Marcos Fish 

        3     Hatchery and the 7-and-a-half million dollar 

        4     additions to the Dundee Hatchery which were 

        5     completed with less than one percent in 

        6     increased costs from change orders and other 

        7     things.  His goal is to provide durable, 

        8     functional and attractive buildings to serve 

        9     the state of Texas.  And he is one of the most 

       10     dedicated and long-serving employees in the 

       11     infrastructure division.

       12          Please recognize the architect William 

       13     Wiley with 20 years of service.  

       14                          (Photographs were then

       15                          taken; applause.)

       16                MR. SANSOM:  I first got to know 

       17     him when he was supervising the restoration of 

       18     the state cemetery.  He is not the person who 

       19     misspelled the word.

       20          Finally from state park at Canyon, we 

       21     come home.  Bill Wilson -- William Wilson 

       22     started at Palo Duro in 1967.  Over his career 

       23     he has worked at LBJ.  He's worked at 

       24     Huntsville.  He transferred to McKinney Falls, 

       25     and actually unfortunately left the department 



.

                                                          27


        1     for a while in 1981.  But in 1990 he came full 

        2     circle and returned to where he started at 

        3     Palo Duro Canyon where today he is assistant 

        4     superintendent with 20 years.  William Wilson 

        5     from Canyon, Texas.

        6                          (Photographs were then

        7                          taken; applause.)

        8                MR. SANSOM:  Mr. Chairman, today 

        9     along with former Commissioner Stumberg, whom 

       10     I've already introduced to you, we have 

       11     Mr. Andy Phillips from Shikar-Safari and our 

       12     friend Fausto Yturria whom all of you know, to 

       13     present what is an annual event here, not only 

       14     before this Commission but game commissions 

       15     throughout the country, the Shikar-Safari 

       16     Wildlife Officer of the Year Award. 

       17          Our winner this year is Brad Chappell who 

       18     serves for 13 years as a Texas game warden.  

       19     He's stationed at Panola County up in Carthage 

       20     where he supervises not only resources like 

       21     Lake Murvaul, about 110 miles of the Sabine 

       22     River and about 800 square miles in Panola 

       23     County.

       24          The landowners, the law enforcement 

       25     officers and citizens up there have come to 



.

                                                          28


        1     depend on Warden Chappell's quick responses to 

        2     emergency calls.  He has a great rapport with 

        3     the citizens because he keeps them informed of 

        4     department programs and changes.  He's very 

        5     visible and accessible and an integral part of 

        6     this community. 

        7          He's a chip off the old block.  When I 

        8     first came here, I had the pleasure of working 

        9     with his father, now Retired Game Warden Wayne 

       10     Chappell, whom many of you may remember was 

       11     one of the initial founders of the Operation 

       12     Game Thief Program.  And Wayne also received 

       13     this Texas Shikar-Safari Wildlife Officer of 

       14     the Year Award in 1981. 

       15          Due to that performance, I would like to 

       16     ask Mr. Phillips and the other members of the 

       17     Shikar-Safari International to come forward 

       18     and present the Wildlife Officer of the Year 

       19     Award to Game Warden Bradley Chappell. 

       20                MR. CHAPPELL:  Thank you.

       21                COMMISSIONER STUMBERG:  Mr. 

       22     Chairman and Honorable Members of the 

       23     Commission, Shikar-Safari, an organization of 

       24     175 members world-wide, we have no paid staff 

       25     so that 100 percent of what our members gives 



.

                                                          29


        1     for conservation goes to conservation.  We 

        2     give over $200,000 a year.  We established the 

        3     program to save the Arabian Oryx which are now 

        4     going back to the Middle East.  We established 

        5     the program in Pakistan to save the markhor, 

        6     and we brought them from 70 up to nearly 1100.  

        7     We've established programs and are 

        8     participating now with the game departments 

        9     all over the country to a communication system 

       10     to where a felon law violator of game violator 

       11     in any state can be identified when they go to 

       12     get a license in any other state so that it 

       13     makes it a lot easier to keep track of them. 

       14          As part of the program of conservation, 

       15     we knew that the people that make it happen 

       16     are the marvelous conservation employees 

       17     throughout the states.  And several decades 

       18     ago we established this program where they're 

       19     selected by their peers so that we feel 

       20     comfortable that the person that receives that 

       21     is the right one.  It's very important to us, 

       22     and Andy, who is the immediate past president 

       23     of Shikar-Safari and Fausto who is in charge 

       24     of this program throughout the Canada and 

       25     United States and who will be our president 



.

                                                          30


        1     next year -- we all serve two years as 

        2     secretary treasurer or KYH editor (inaudible) 

        3     Wildlife Officer of the Year Award before we 

        4     become presidents.  So they try to be sure 

        5     we're well-educated before we get there.

        6          But one of the nice things, and I guess 

        7     the highest privilege we can get, is to be 

        8     able to present this award as our members do 

        9     throughout the States and throughout Canada.  

       10     I'd like to ask if he would do the honors with  

       11     Fausto.  Thank you all very much.

       12                MR. SANSOM:  Brad, congratulations.

       13                          (Photographs were then

       14                          taken; applause.)

       15                MR. PHILLIPS:  Mr. Chairman, 

       16     Commissioners, it's our real pleasure to be 

       17     here today, and I'd like to briefly go over 

       18     the criteria for the basis of selection of a 

       19     winner of the Wildlife Officer of the Year 

       20     Award.  Most important of all, this award 

       21     is -- the winner of this award is selected by 

       22     his peers, and that's the case in every state, 

       23     as well as all the Canadian Provinces.  Each 

       24     of the law enforcement division's 31 district 

       25     supervisors here in Texas select one candidate 



.

                                                          31


        1     that they feel excels both in his public 

        2     service as well as his private life and the 

        3     image that he projects as a wildlife officer.  

        4     And those 31 candidates are then paired down, 

        5     and you see standing before you today the guy 

        6     that stood the test for this year.  And none 

        7     of this could have been accomplished without 

        8     the everyday consistent, 24-hour-a-day 

        9     assistance of his better half Charmaine who 

       10     needs to join us up front now if she would 

       11     please.

       12                     (Applause)

       13                MR. PHILLIPS:  As you all know 

       14     being a successful conservation officer 

       15     requires a partnership, and that partnership 

       16     goes beyond the relationship between the 

       17     officer and his department, but very 

       18     definitely includes as a major factor his 

       19     wife.  And we congratulate you on your part in 

       20     this project.

       21          It's my pleasure to turn this part of the 

       22     presentation over to Fausto Yturria, our 

       23     incoming president and the chairman of the 

       24     Wildlife Officer of the Year program.

       25                MR. YTURRIA:  Mr. Chairman, fellow 



.

                                                          32


        1     Commissioners, I just want to tell you what a 

        2     sincere pleasure and honor it is to be here 

        3     today to present this award to a very 

        4     deserving man.  Brad, on behalf of 

        5     Shikar-Safari Club International, my sincerest 

        6     congratulations.  Now let me give you this pin 

        7     so you can pin it on him.  It's one of the 

        8     only pins that our wardens will wear.  Just 

        9     don't stab him.

       10                MR. PHILLIPS:  We appreciate the 

       11     fact that the Commission saw fit several years 

       12     ago, as many other departments across the 

       13     nation have felt likewise, to authorize the 

       14     Wildlife Officer of the Year Award pin to be 

       15     the only nondepartmental ornament allowed to 

       16     be worn on an officer's uniform. 

       17                MR. YTURRIA:  Here's another little 

       18     token of our esteem, a plaque, which I hope 

       19     you will exhibit proudly for the years to 

       20     come.  And also the annual award so you can 

       21     frame and proudly exhibit.  We're very proud 

       22     of what you have accomplished.

       23                MR. CHAPPELL:  I certainly 

       24     appreciate the recognition.  And there's a lot 

       25     of game wardens out there in this state that 



.

                                                          33


        1     deserve the same recognition. 

        2                COMMISSIONER STUMBERG:  These 

        3     pictures will appear once a year in our KYH 

        4     Conservation which will go all over to all 

        5     previous recipients, to all the game 

        6     departments and to all the members, and that's 

        7     why we wanted good pictures of everybody 

        8     because we're very proud of what you've done.

        9                MR. CHAPPELL:  Thank you very much.

       10                          (Photographs were then

       11                          taken; applause.)

       12                MR. SANSOM:  Mr. Chairman, that 

       13     concludes our awards for this morning. 

       14                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you very 

       15     much.  And for our guests in the audience, we 

       16     appreciate you sharing that part of our 

       17     meeting with us.  It's gratifying to us to 

       18     recognize people who have given so much of 

       19     their life to help make this department what 

       20     it is. 

       21     AGENDA ITEM NO. 1: ACTION - CONSENT AGENDA 

       22     ITEMS.

       23                CHAIRMAN BASS:  That brings us to 

       24     the approval of our agenda for today.  And 

       25     there are four items that are eligible for the 



.

                                                          34


        1     consent agenda having been passed by the 

        2     various committees and recommended to the full 

        3     Commission and made eligible for consent 

        4     agenda and items which there is no further 

        5     public comment that has been requested.  

        6     There's no one here to speak on them.  We've 

        7     heard from those members of the public who 

        8     have made themselves available -- their 

        9     comments available prior to this.  And those 

       10     items are:  Item 4, Artwork Approval; Item 6, 

       11     Implementation of House Bill 1581, which is 

       12     the State Park Fee Policy; Item 10, Fiber 

       13     Optic Cable Easement here in Travis County; 

       14     and Item 11, a Nomination for an Oil and Gas 

       15     Lease in Fort Bend County and Harris County.

       16          Those four items being made part of the 

       17     consent agenda, I would ask the Commission to 

       18     approve the agenda in that format for 

       19     consideration today.

       20                COMMISSIONER AVILA:  So move.

       21                CHAIRMAN BASS:  A motion.

       22                COMMISSIONER WATSON:  Second.

       23                CHAIRMAN BASS:  I have a second.  

       24     That being done, I would ask for approval of 

       25     the consent agenda items and formally accept 



.

                                                          35


        1     them as recommended by the committees to the 

        2     full Commission.  Motion?

        3                COMMISSIONER HEATH:  So move.

        4                COMMISSIONER WATSON:  Second.

        5                CHAIRMAN BASS:  A motion by 

        6     Commissioner Heath, seconded by Commissioner 

        7     Watson.  All in favor.  Any opposed?  Thank 

        8     you very much.

        9          (Motion passed unanimously.)

       10     AGENDA ITEM NO. 2: BRIEFING - EXPO VIII.

       11                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Ernie Gammage, 

       12     would you please come forward and pat 

       13     ourselves all on the back for a wonderful Expo 

       14     and give us a little debriefing.  It was a 

       15     great event this year.

       16                           (Whereupon, a briefing
                                    item was presented to
       17                           the commissioners, after
                                    which, the following
       18                           proceedings were had:)

       19     AGENDA ITEM NO. 3: ACTION - NEGOTIATED 

       20     CONTRACTS. 

       21                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Steve Whiston, 

       22     negotiated contracts.  Dan Patton, negotiated 

       23     contracts.

       24                MR. PATTON:  For the record, my 

       25     name is Dan Patton, director of infrastructure 



.

                                                          36


        1     division.  I'm here today to present an action 

        2     item to adopt policies that will allow for 

        3     negotiated contracts under Senate Bill 874.

        4          As we mentioned yesterday, as part of our 

        5     two-year effort to establish more efficient 

        6     and effective contracting procedures, we 

        7     sought legislative authority to expend its 

        8     contracting -- expand its contracting 

        9     authority for public works to include 

       10     negotiated procurement of project delivery in 

       11     addition to its existing public bid authority. 

       12     TPWD also sought legislative confirmation of 

       13     its authority to negotiate and enter into 

       14     contracts with other governmental agencies. 

       15          The 76th Texas Legislature enacted Senate  

       16     Bill 874 giving us the requested authority in 

       17     both areas.  Senate Bill 874 further provided 

       18     the Commission adopt policies and procedures 

       19     governing the solicitation and issuance of 

       20     contracts under this new authority. 

       21          We drafted proposals to implement 874 

       22     authority.  These were published in the Texas 

       23     Register on October 15th.  We have received no 

       24     comments to date, and I believe all of you 

       25     have copies of these rules in your packet. 



.

                                                          37


        1          We recommend adoption of following 

        2     motion.  And I believe we have a speaker on 

        3     this issue.

        4                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Any questions from 

        5     the Commission?

        6           Mr. Gilleland, you have requested to 

        7     speak on this.  Would you please come forward 

        8     and give us your comments at this time.

        9                MR. GILLELAND:  My name is Ellis 

       10     Gilleland.  I'm a private citizen.  I'm 

       11     representing Texas Animals which is an 

       12     Internet animal rights organization.  I've 

       13     given you three handouts.  The first one is 

       14     from the Texas Register, 15 October, 1999 

       15     which contains your rule.  The second document 

       16     I've given you is the Texas Parks and Wildlife 

       17     construction service agreement, Contract No. 

       18     345-0360.  The third document I've given you 

       19     is a letter from Parks and Wildlife to me on 

       20     14 November, '96 in reply to open records 

       21     requests. 

       22          Negotiating contracts, as far as Parks 

       23     and Wildlife is concerned, means sole source.  

       24     If you look at this (inaudible) on the -- 

       25     under the Texas Register, you see "consistent 



.

                                                          38


        1     of applicable state procurement practices 

        2     soliciting a warden."  Mr. Director Sansom did 

        3     not do this.  He went to Kansas, got a man for 

        4     a $1 million contract -- you've got the first 

        5     and last pages in front of you -- went to 

        6     Kansas, paid a man a million dollars to build 

        7     a Bastrop golf course over the bodies of the 

        8     endangered Houston toads.  There was a sole 

        9     source.  It was not advertised. 

       10          The contract shows a face value of $1 

       11     million.  It's my understanding that the 

       12     department paid 500,000 and the national park 

       13     paid the other 500,000.  So you had a mix of 

       14     state and federal funds.  I went to the state 

       15     auditor, filed a complaint against this 

       16     diversion of funds for sole source contract, 

       17     particularly from a person from Kansas.  If 

       18     we're going to give a guy sole source, let's 

       19     at least give the dope money to the Texan. 

       20          The third document I've given you is a 

       21     letter when I requested disbursement vouchers 

       22     for that $1 million, I got a total of two 

       23     vouchers.  I did not include them.  One was 

       24     for $8,000, the other was $40,000.  Out of $1 

       25     million, your director Mr. Sansom showed me 



.

                                                          39


        1     evidence of paying 48,000.  That's a big gap. 

        2          The second fraud that he did, he 

        3     transferred the contract to LCRA.  When I 

        4     filed a complaint with the Texas State 

        5     Auditor, within a week or two he had 

        6     transferred the contract over to Mr. Rose, and 

        7     I could no longer track that million dollars.  

        8     That's a matter of record.  I'll go into court 

        9     and swear on it.  You've got the documents in 

       10     front of you.  You can have Mr. Sansom produce 

       11     all the papers on Project No. 533-016, Bastrop 

       12     State Park contract with Mr. Cruz, Craig, 

       13     C-r-a-i-g, Metz, M-e-t-z from Kansas. 

       14          So I beseech you to recognize your new 

       15     rule as a sole source contract provision.  The 

       16     state law requires open bidding and no sole 

       17     source.  Read the law.  Where's your lawyer?  

       18     Your lawyer will tell you that the sole source 

       19     negotiated contract is fraud.  This guy has 

       20     done it before, he'll do it again.  Thank you.

       21                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Further questions 

       22     or comments?  Chair would entertain a motion  

       23     there being no further comments.

       24                COMMISSIONER AVILA:  So move.

       25                COMMISSIONER WATSON:  Second.



.

                                                          40


        1                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Have a motion and a 

        2     second.  All in favor.  Any opposed?  Thank 

        3     you very much, Mr. Patton.

        4          (Motion passed unanimously.) 

        5     "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission 

        6     adopts amendments to 31 TAC 61.21 and 61.24, 

        7     new 61.25 and 61.26, and 51.60 concerning 

        8     Negotiated Contracts for Public Works and 

        9     Authority to contract with other governmental 

       10     agencies, with changes to the proposed text as 

       11     published in the October 15, 1999 issues of 

       12     the Texas Register(24 TexReg 8916)"

       13     AGENDA ITEM NO. 5: BRIEFING - STATEWIDE 

       14     VEGETATION MANAGEMENT PLAN. 

       15                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Item 5, statewide 

       16     vegetation management plan.  Mr. McKinney. 

       17                          (Whereupon, a briefing
                                    item was presented to
       18                           the commissioners, after
                                    which, the following
       19                           proceedings were had:)

       20     AGENDA ITEM NO. 7: BRIEFING - SNOW GOOSE 

       21     CONSERVATION PLAN STATUS. 

       22                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Next item is also a 

       23     briefing item.  It's the Snow Goose 

       24     Conservation Plan Status from Vernon Bevill.  

       25     Please bring us up to date.  I think we're in 



.

                                                          41


        1     a different posture than we were this time 

        2     last year. 

        3                          (Whereupon, a briefing
                                    item was presented to
        4                           the commissioners, after
                                    which, the following
        5                           proceedings were had:)

        6     AGENDA ITEM NO. 8: ACTION - SCIENTIFIC BREEDER 

        7     REGULATIONS. 

        8                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Item 8, Scientific  

        9     Breeder Regulations, Dr. Jerry Cooke. 

       10                DR. COOKE:  Mr. Chairman and 

       11     Members, my name is Jerry Cooke, program 

       12     director of upland wildlife ecology in the 

       13     wildlife division.  I'll be presenting an 

       14     abbreviated form of what we presented 

       15     yesterday on the scientific breeder 

       16     proclamation changes. 

       17          As we said before, there is 275 

       18     facilities that would be directly affected by 

       19     these regulations, and they're distributed 

       20     pretty much throughout the white-tail deer 

       21     ranch.  The proposed changes would affect an 

       22     alternative unique numbering system to defer 

       23     the requirement for tattooing these  unique 

       24     numbers until an animal is actually leaving a 

       25     facility.  We want to emphasize that all deer 



.

                                                          42


        1     would be required to be marked by March 1, 

        2     which is a slight change in the wording of the 

        3     proclamation that you had before you. 

        4          The purchase of transport permits, we 

        5     rescind the return requirement before 

        6     activation, allow permits to be valid until 

        7     they're actually used rather than lapsing at 

        8     the end of a breeder permit cycle, and to 

        9     allow amendments to both transport and 

       10     purchase permits any time during the 

       11     transaction.

       12          We also want to clarify the fact that the 

       13     requirement for the signature of both the 

       14     seller and the receiver just needs to be done 

       15     before the end of the transaction, not 

       16     necessarily as a preliminary to the 

       17     transaction, and that an agent of either party 

       18     could be a signature on these permits. 

       19          Also, the wording that we had in the 

       20     proposal about ear tag changing, was not 

       21     really our intent.  As long as the statutory 

       22     requirement that animals are ear tagged in the 

       23     facility is all that we're concerned with. 

       24          The use of the word "exact" number of 

       25     fawns reported by November 1 was a bit of 



.

                                                          43


        1     concern because it kind of implied that there 

        2     wasn't any flexibility in the way it would be 

        3     enforced.  We'd like to remove the word 

        4     "exact" from that, but otherwise require all 

        5     fawns to be reported November 1 in lieu of 

        6     tagging and tattooing. 

        7          Allow for the temporary transfer of adult 

        8     deer for breeding or fawns for nursing between 

        9     facilities or to a third party, and handle the 

       10     entire transaction with receipts rather than 

       11     actual change of ownership. 

       12          Yesterday I suggested -- or recommended 

       13     that we amend the requirement of markings to 

       14     allow the TX number to be used.  I intended 

       15     that to be an alternative method not a 

       16     replacement method, because there are 

       17     out-of-state individuals who would come into 

       18     Texas that wouldn't have a TX number, and this 

       19     would allow those trailers to be marked as 

       20     well. 

       21          By policy, we'll be inspecting facilities 

       22     and records at reasonable times, which is to 

       23     say when business is being conducted.  And we 

       24     intend -- again this is just a statement to 

       25     you.  We intend to review all of our report 



.

                                                          44


        1     forms and simplify those considerably over 

        2     what they were last year.

        3          We recommend that the Commission adopt 

        4     this with the following amendment that you 

        5     read on your screen.  And I would be happy to 

        6     answer any questions that you might have at 

        7     this time.

        8                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Not any questions.  

        9     We have some public comments at this time.  

       10     I'd like to ask Dr. James Kroll to please come 

       11     forward with your comments.  And David 

       12     Langford, if you would be prepared to speak 

       13     next. 

       14                DR. KROLL:  Good morning.  I'll be 

       15     very brief.  You know, often y'all get a lot 

       16     of criticism up here, but I'm here to say that 

       17     your system is working very well.  One of our 

       18     goals -- I'm James Kroll, president of the 

       19     Texas Deer Association.  And one of our goals 

       20     was to work cooperatively and harmoniously 

       21     with the department developing policy and 

       22     regulations.  And I'm here to commend the 

       23     folks involved in this, Dr. Cooke and the 

       24     other -- Officer Sinclair in working very 

       25     closely with us in developing these amendments 



.

                                                          45


        1     to the regulations.  And we commend them and 

        2     we support them.  Thank you.

        3                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you, 

        4     Dr. Kroll.  David Langford.  And Jerry 

        5     Johnston, if you would be prepared to speak 

        6     next. 

        7                MR. LANGFORD:  Thank you, 

        8     Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission.  I'm 

        9     David Langford, Texas Wildlife Association, 

       10     and I would like to echo Dr. Kroll's comments 

       11     about working on this issue.  Many of our 

       12     members are also scientific breeders and/or 

       13     vice versa, and these are regulations that 

       14     they can live with.  We'd also like to make 

       15     sure that this is a work in progress.  We'll 

       16     see how these all work.  Everybody thinks 

       17     they're going to work fine, but I know that 

       18     everyone will be open if they do need tweaking 

       19     any more.  I appreciate the spirit from which 

       20     all these negotiations have taken place.  

       21     Thank you. 

       22                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you.  Jerry 

       23     Johnston.  And Mr. Gilleland, if you'd be 

       24     prepared to speak next.  

       25                MR. JOHNSTON:  Commissioners, I'm 



.

                                                          46


        1     Jerry Johnston, vice-president of the Texas 

        2     Deer Association, and I also appreciate the 

        3     professional courtesy that Jerry Cooke and 

        4     David Sinclair, the people involved in the law 

        5     enforcement side of the issue of the breeder 

        6     rules and regs, that they have -- we've had a 

        7     couple of, like, field trips so to speak where 

        8     we got law enforcement, as well as Mr. Cooke's 

        9     department with us so that we could show them 

       10     in the pen that certain things that were 

       11     intended to be the right thing were not 

       12     working in all reality.  And I'm just real 

       13     tickled that they've been open with us and 

       14     have understood.  And I just want to, you 

       15     know, congratulate them, their working with 

       16     us.  And we really appreciate it. 

       17          There's a couple of issues that we feel 

       18     like that the department is going to have to 

       19     prove to itself that they're not working that 

       20     well, and one of them is the unique number.  

       21     And in all practicality, I'm not sure that it 

       22     accomplishes what they want it to accomplish, 

       23     but we will work with that.  And that's about 

       24     all.  Thank you.

       25                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you very 



.

                                                          47


        1     much.  Appreciate your comments.  

        2     Mr. Gilleland.

        3                MR. GILLELAND:  Will you call this 

        4     guy off?

        5                COMMISSIONER BASS:  Mr. Gilleland, 

        6     will you please follow the procedures?

        7                MR. GILLELAND:  My name is Ellis 

        8     Gilleland.  I'm a private citizen.  I'm 

        9     speaking for Texas Animals.  We is a Texas 

       10     animal rights organization on the Internet.  

       11     I've given you a handout.  It's the October 

       12     1st, 1999 pages from the Texas Register, Page 

       13     8512 and 8513.  You will notice in the 

       14     publication that you have -- I have put a 

       15     check mark where it says, "A lawful 

       16     out-of-state source."  This is Regulation 

       17     65.609, Purchase of Deer and Purchase Permit.  

       18     And two or three times you made the statement 

       19     in here that deer may be purchased or obtained 

       20     from a lawful out-of-state source. 

       21          You nowhere define what a lawful 

       22     out-of-state source is.  If you look back on 

       23     the first page of your own definitions, you'll 

       24     see there's no definition for a lawful 

       25     out-of-state source.  That is very ambiguous.  



.

                                                          48


        1     You can have deer coming from Africa.  You can 

        2     have state sources, private sources, federal 

        3     sources, all sorts of sources.  And so it's 

        4     and ambiguous type situation.  You need a 

        5     definition. 

        6          Down under F, straight down under that, 

        7     you have, "A person may amend a purchase 

        8     permit at any time prior to the transport of 

        9     deer."  I'm very much opposed to allowing a 

       10     permit holder to make his own amendment and 

       11     then subsequently his own pleasure if he 

       12     decides to notify you, fine.  So I would 

       13     reverse that and put yourself in the driver's 

       14     seat and not the permittee.  You're the one 

       15     that grants the permit to start with, and to 

       16     allow the permittee to make his own amendment 

       17     is rather asinine, I think. 

       18          The next thing I would like to comment on 

       19     is you have Paragraph H and it says, "Deer 

       20     lawfully purchased or obtained for stocking 

       21     purposes may be temporarily held in 

       22     captivity," and then you have colon, and then 

       23     you put, "are not hunted prior to liberation."  

       24     That's not a sentence.  It's not grammatically 

       25     correct.  It has absolutely no meaning 



.

                                                          49


        1     whatsoever.  It's deliberately written to be 

        2     ambiguous.  There's no way a judge or you -- I 

        3     challenge any one of you or any one in this 

        4     room or the state of Texas to make that into a 

        5     lawful, readable, workable sentence in 

        6     English.  Now, maybe it makes sense in some 

        7     other language, but not in English. 

        8          The way it should be -- and have your 

        9     pencils and pens ready -- the way it should 

       10     be:  "A deer lawfully purchased or obtained 

       11     for stocking purposes may be temporarily held 

       12     in captivity and shall not be hunted prior to 

       13     liberation." 

       14          Please do not write ambiguity into your 

       15     own cotton picking rule and allow people to 

       16     hunt.  You're doing it deliberately.  You're 

       17     doing it deliberately to allow these hunt yaks 

       18     to come up here and shoot deer in captivity.  

       19     When you get to court, the judge says, "Oh, I 

       20     can't interpret this.  It's ambiguous."  Ask 

       21     your own lawyer.  Let's be honest with the 

       22     public, folks. 

       23          I hope Representative Kuempel is taking 

       24     note of this, the fraud that they're trying to 

       25     perpetrate on the public.  Thank you, sir. 



.

                                                          50


        1                CHAIRMAN BASS:  That concludes the 

        2     public comment.  Are there any questions from 

        3     the Commission or comments?

        4                DR. COOKE:  Can I respond to some 

        5     of those? 

        6                CHAIRMAN BASS:  As you wish.

        7                DR. COOKE:  First of all, the 

        8     definition of a legitimate, legal out-of-state 

        9     source is defined by the states of origin, not 

       10     by us.  So basically, as long as it's a legal 

       11     transaction in that state, then it's 

       12     recognized in this state.  The aspect of 

       13     amendment was to accommodate for changing 

       14     decisions during a purchasing process or loss 

       15     of animals in transport, which certainly can't 

       16     complete a transaction under those 

       17     circumstances. 

       18          And as far as the wording on the soft 

       19     release, if a housekeeping change is required 

       20     to clarify -- I think it's very clear what the 

       21     intent of the Commission was.  And we will 

       22     look into that before we publish the final, if 

       23     you allow me that flexibility to address that 

       24     housekeeping issue if it's required.

       25                CHAIRMAN BASS:  The Chair's feeling 



.

                                                          51


        1     is that the words are not ambiguous and it is 

        2     clear and something that's easily interpreted.  

        3     So I personally don't feel that's an issue 

        4     unless anyone else in the Commission feels 

        5     otherwise.

        6                COMMISSIONER DINKINS:  Mr. Chair, 

        7     if they do look at it and think that some 

        8     housekeeping, clean-up would be good, I'd 

        9     certainly favor them doing that.

       10                CHAIRMAN BASS:  I would not oppose 

       11     it.

       12                DR. COOKE:  Thank you. 

       13                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Any other comments?  

       14     Chair would entertain a motion.

       15                COMMISSIONER HEATH:  So move.

       16                COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Second.

       17                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion by 

       18     Commissioner Heath, seconded by Commissioner 

       19     Angelo.  All in favor.  Any opposed?  Thank 

       20     you, Dr. Cooke.

       21          (Motion passed unanimously.)

       22     "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission 

       23     adopts amendments to 31 TAC 65.601, 65.602, 

       24     65.605, and 65.607-65.610, concerning the 

       25     Scientific Breeder Proclamation, with changes 



.

                                                          52


        1     to the proposed text as published in the 

        2     October 1, 1999 issues of the Texas 

        3     Register(24 TexReg 8510)"

        4     AGENDA ITEM NO. 9: BRIEFING - SEAGRASS.  

        5                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Briefing item, 

        6     please, Seagrass. 

        7                          (Whereupon, a briefing
                                    item was presented to
        8                           the commissioners, after
                                    which, the following
        9                           proceedings were had:)

       10     AGENDA ITEM NO. 12: ACTION - LAND ACQUISITION 

       11     AND DONATION - JACK COUNTY - FORT RICHARDSON 

       12     SHP. 

       13                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Item 12 is a land 

       14     acquisition and donation in Jack County, Fort 

       15     Richardson State Historical Park.  Could we 

       16     please have Ms. Nichols give us that 

       17     presentation.  

       18                MS. NICHOLS:  Chairman, 

       19     Commissioners, my name is Kathryn Nichols.  

       20     I'm in the land conservation program.  We had 

       21     a land acquisition and donation opportunity 

       22     for Fort Richardson State Park.  The 

       23     department has the opportunity to acquire 

       24     three parcels that underlie the Fort grounds 

       25     and trailway.  An approximately five-acre 



.

                                                          53


        1     tract -- an approximately five-acre tract is 

        2     available for purchase from an industrial 

        3     company.  An approximately seven-acre tract is 

        4     for sale by a residential neighbor.  And a 

        5     two-acre parcel is offered by donation from 

        6     the Friends of Fort Richardson, Inc.  The 

        7     two-acre parcel fronts the creek and all 

        8     tracts but the park boundary.

        9          In addition to conserving original Fort 

       10     property, acquisition of these tracts would 

       11     provide buffer to the present historic grounds 

       12     and buildings and watershed and allow the 

       13     department to remove unsightly metal 

       14     buildings, fencing and tanks that are visible 

       15     from the present restored area.

       16          The staff recommends the Parks and 

       17     Wildlife Commission adopt the following 

       18     motion:  "The Executive Director is authorized 

       19     to take all necessary steps to consummate the 

       20     purchase of two tracts of approximately seven 

       21     and five acres at a cost not to exceed the 

       22     appraised value and accept the donation of a 

       23     two-acre tract of land at Fort Richardson 

       24     State Historical Park."

       25                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you.  There's 



.

                                                          54


        1     no public comment on this item.  Is there any 

        2     question from the committee?

        3                COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Move 

        4     approval.

        5                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion to move 

        6     approval.

        7                COMMISSIONER IDSAL:  Second.

        8                CHAIRMAN BASS:  And a second.  All 

        9     in favor.  Thank you very much.  Please move 

       10     forward with that.

       11          (Motion passed unanimously.)

       12     AGENDA ITEM NO. 13: ACTION - PERSONNEL 

       13     MATTERS. 

       14                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Last item on our 

       15     agenda today is a personnel matter.  

       16     Commissioner Heath is -- would you please take 

       17     the lead on this as chair of the finance 

       18     committee?

       19                COMMISSIONER HEATH:  Mr. Chairman, 

       20     there was an administrative error made in our 

       21     August meeting requiring the new posting -- 

       22     regarding the new posting requirements as set 

       23     forth by the legislature.  Simply stated, 

       24     these requirements state that the issue of the 

       25     executive director's income be moved from 



.

                                                          55


        1     executive session to open meeting. 

        2          Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I move that the 

        3     Commission approve the Executive Director's 

        4     new salary level as is authorized in the 

        5     Appropriations Bill effective September 1st, 

        6     1999. 

        7                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you.  

        8     Mr. Gilleland, you have signed up to speak on 

        9     this matter.  Would you please come forward at 

       10     this time if you wish to speak.  And 

       11     Mr. Gilleland, the Chair will admonish you to 

       12     remember the rules of conduct here and that we 

       13     will not tolerate any personal attacks or 

       14     comments of that nature.  Please conduct 

       15     yourself in a business-like manner.

       16                MR. GILLELAND:  My name is Ellis 

       17     Gilleland.  I'm a private citizen speaking for 

       18     Texas Animals, animal rights organization on 

       19     the Internet.  I most respectfully request 

       20     that the information which you are discussing 

       21     in ambiguous and secretive tones be fully 

       22     explained to the public in terms of numbers, 

       23     what was this gentleman's previous salary and 

       24     what is it you are recommending, are you 

       25     recommending a decrease, increase or the same.  



.

                                                          56


        1     I think the public has a right to know that.  

        2     My recommendation is that his salary be cut in 

        3     half.  In other words, related to the work by 

        4     productivity that he is accomplishing. 

        5          The numbers are being withheld 

        6     deliberately.  You're doing it deliberately, 

        7     and it is exactly the way you're doing with 

        8     the gifts.

        9                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Mr. Gilleland, the 

       10     numbers are -- excuse me, sir, for 

       11     interrupting.  The numbers are part of the 

       12     Appropriations Bill that is public record.  

       13     You may go down to the Capitol and get that 

       14     information if you wish.  Any other comments?

       15                MR. GILLELAND:  Yes, sir.  If we -- 

       16     not everybody lives in Austin and can go down 

       17     and research this, sir.  If it was announced 

       18     in a public meeting, it could go in the 

       19     newspaper, and if people could publish it to 

       20     the whole 20 million people in Texas.  20 

       21     million cannot come to the legislative library 

       22     and research that.  I can and I will.  But I'm 

       23     saying that it is your job, incumbent upon you 

       24     to be open to the public as opposed to being 

       25     secretive.  You're secretive with the gifts.  



.

                                                          57


        1     You don't say how much the NRA is giving you.  

        2     And you're not even telling us how much you're 

        3     paying this man, whether you're paying him  

        4     more or less --

        5                COMMISSIONER HEATH:  Mr. Gilleland, 

        6     if we decide that it's your job to tell us how 

        7     to do our job, we'll let you know.

        8                MR. GILLELAND:  I have no more 

        9     comment.  I've made my point.  I just ask you 

       10     to be open.

       11                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you, sir.

       12                MR. GILLELAND:  Thank you. 

       13                COMMISSIONER DINKINS:  I second 

       14     Mr. Heath's motion.

       15                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you.  I have 

       16     a motion my Commissioner Heath, a second by 

       17     Commissioner Dinkins.  All in favor.  Any 

       18     opposed?  Motion carries.

       19          (Motion passed unanimously.)

       20     "Commission authorization to increase the 

       21     annual salary of the Executive Director of 

       22     Texas Parks and Wildlife to $115,000."

       23                CHAIRMAN BASS:  Mr. Sansom, is 

       24     there any other business to come before this 

       25     Commission today?



.

                                                          58


        1                MR. SANSOM:  No, sir. 

        2                CHAIRMAN BASS:  The Chair knowing 

        3     of none, there is no other business, we stand 

        4     adjourned.  We thank you, ladies and 

        5     gentlemen.

        6      

        7                        * * * * *

        8                    HEARING ADJOURNED

        9                        * * * * *

       10     

       11     

       12     

       13     

       14     

       15     

       16     

       17     

       18     

       19     

       20     

       21     

       22     

       23     

       24     

       25     



.

                                                          59


        1                 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

        2                            

        3     COUNTY OF TRAVIS     X

        4     THE STATE OF TEXAS   X

        5          I, Rachelle Latino, certified shorthand 

        6     reporter for the State of Texas, do hereby 

        7     certify that the above and foregoing 58 pages 

        8     constitutes a full, true and correct 

        9     transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks 

       10     and Wildlife Commission on November 18, 1999, 

       11     in the commission hearing room of the Texas 

       12     Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, 

       13     Travis County, Texas.

       14          I further certify that a stenographic 

       15     record was made by me at the time of the 

       16     public meeting and said stenographic notes 

       17     were thereafter reduced to computerized 

       18     transcription under my direction and control.

       19          Witness my hand this, the 29th day of 

       20     December 1999.

       21     

       22     
                                                        
       23                     Rachelle Latino
                              Certified Shorthand Reporter
       24                     State of Texas
                              Certificate No. 6771
       25                     Expires: 12-31-99



.

                                                          60


        1     
              
        2                                                 
                              Lee M. Bass, Chairman
        3     
              
        4     
                                                          
        5                     Dick W. Heath
              
        6     
              
        7                                                 
                              John Avila, Jr.
        8     
              
        9     
                                                          
       10                     Ernest Angelo, Jr.
                   
       11     
              
       12                                                 
                              Carol E. Dinkins
       13     
              
       14     
                                                          
       15                     Katharine Armstrong Idsal
              
       16     
              
       17                                                 
                              Nolan Ryan
       18     
              
       19     
                                                          
       20                     Mark E. Watson, Jr.
              
       21     
                               *  *  *  *  *
       22     

       23     

       24     

       25     


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